Shaun Groves asked me this question about why "I don't go to church," here is the part which was part of the conversation and my response to it.
"Seriously, wanting to understand. Because I’m not sure myself what all it is that rubs me weird about organized church. Maybe it’s what rubs you wrong. Let’s see."
1) We are supposed to be a family. My experience is the Church is a family on Sunday (or anytime you have a service).
2) I have a hard time believing the only people in a congregation (say of 500) that have Spiritual Gifts are the payed staff members( I think that covers bases). A business model church does not design a service (which at least it is appropriately named) to let the Holy Spirit freely work. I know if you are a staunch Calvinist this is easily argued against because the Spirit would do what He willed. So why not involved the whole "congregation" and let them use their Spiritual Gifts without a background check and "spiritual gifts test/survey." If you wanna argue the background check then you obviously do not know the people you go to church with, which only supports my point.
3)Be real...Life sucks sometimes and it is okay to let those around you know life sucks. In church we would put on these smiles and pretend everything was honky dory. This happen with my "perfect church family" who's true identity was a work-a-holic mother and an extremely abusive father and kids who were just waiting to get as far away as they could. To be real to the point where I can say to someone "you know what dude, I really screwed up, I..." is a hard thing to do, it takes trust which you cannot build in a public building once a week.
4) I don't care what you say, you don't need a million dollar sound system, when you deny people who are willing to be missionaries and live in mud huts monthly support. I have seen this in every church I have ever been in and it pisses me off. It is literally double dipping on their guilt to tithe, then we are going to have this person talk about "how you need to give more to them, because we spent to much of your money on our new sound system, but I sure sound wonderful from here don't I? Praise the Lord..."
5)While we are on money, the only people I believe who should be paid are people truly furthering the Kingdom of God. I don't believe a "pastor" who sits in an office behind a closed door all week to teach a message I can here any preach is furthering the Kingdom, in fact it is distracting us and making us lazy not to read the Bible ourselves. So why not spend out money on organizations(like compassion) or on missionaries willing to do work that the majority of us are not willing to do?
6) Sorry if I sound really angry, I am not, in fact I love the Church so much I am willing to try and help make a change for the better.
Wednesday, October 31, 2007
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17 comments:
To be honest, I have a hard time believing that a group of 50 people could sufficiently support multiple missionaries and also a crisis pregnancy center compared to a larger group/church.
You have some good points, but you shouldn't dismiss the fact that there are churches out there that do these things. I have only been to churches (save two visits to Mars Hill, because I'm not sure) that have small groups meeting throughout the week sharing those intimate things with each other and having smaller Bible studies together. And the only million dollar sound system I've seen would have been (no surprise) Mars Hill's.
Outside of my regular family, there probably aren't people I know or who know me better than my church family. It's probably not so relationship-oriented at a large church, but small ones, such as those I've attended seem to focus a lot on unity.
Also, I'm not criticizing you. I know that churches can be different anywhere you go.
I agree that much of this is true of SOME churches. But don't put every church into that stereotype.
My church is pretty good. We have a VERY small church. No more than about 30 or 40 members and about 70 or 80 people come to the service every Sunday. So we all know each other and we're very informal so you don't feel stiff or uncomfortable. We only pay our pastors and I think they deserve it. Our main pastor has a family of seven with no other job because our church also runs an after school program and summer camp for kids during the summer and he's always helping out with those. Our associate pastor does the same. We have tithes and offerings but only to pay the bills and rent since we don't own the building. Personally, we've had our sound system since the church was formed about 15 years ago. We also have various small Bible studies almost every day of the week depending on when you're free. So again, not all churches are so bad.
It may be hard to find a church you agree with but if you look hard enough you may find one you like. Meanwhile you're looking, or maybe you just can't find one that you like, still try to set apart time to have fellowhip with other Christians and read the Bible and pray together and have discussions or something. You may not agree but it's just a suggestion (:
Great post.
Even the "good" churches don't seem to fit the model for the church found in the scriptures.
It's like we've made the church into something that fits around the other parts of our life.
Still, it's hard to take an honest look at the way we congregate and worship, because people are so attached to tradition. It scares me and makes me wonder if we haven't made an idol out of our way (location, style, etc...) of worship; refusing to consider what scriptures and the Holy Spirit might reveal to us out of fear that it might condemn our current church.
Even folks in churches that most professing Christians would call BAD are unlikely to leave. It's the "dirty diaper" theory. It may be full of crap, but it is MY crap and it's warm!
Alas....
It would be interesting to research every mention of the church in the scriptures and to develop a list of characteristics attributed to the church. We could use it as a sort of litmus test for our own local churches or to start our own....
Long response - sorry:
1.Community – it’s a funny thing – I have family and I have community – community I find is those more like-minded, growth concerned, and more likely people which I can have peer to peer interaction with. Family is more or less a dirty word for me – but if you’ve got a great one then yes, I guess it would be.
2. Spiritual gifts are wonderful – because as the name denotes – spiritual and gifts – when we receive Christ, we receive the Spirit – or if you believe when we are baptized we receive the Spirit – whichever – regardless if you are a professed and committed follower – you’ve got the Spirit and you’ve got the gifts that come along with that… involvement though comes on the leading of the individual – in that it is a choice, one that many unfortunately opt out of, also there is a discerning issue – I know mine are primarily administrative, organizational and long term shepherding for lack of a better word – not hospitality but rather a long term investment in the growth of another. The first two make some people cringe – ew, like Martha Stewart – hey, we’re given what He sees fit... I just roll with it.
As to the background check – I support it for two reasons – the church I use to attend/born and raised in sees at minimum of 5000 through it’s doors on Sunday morning alone, add the Saturday night services and the other language churches (8 different languages) within our building and you’d be well over 6000 on a Sunday, add the student ministries, day care and other resources and in a week we easily pass 10,000 people. With that many people, of whom especially with the student ministries are non-Christians we’ve found it’s a security issue for everyone, as well I believe it’s required of any not for profit organization here... Other than that we had an issue about 10 years back now – with a member who was caught molesting babies in the nursery – the nursery is now camera monitored and volunteering limited to parents of children only. We learned the hard way - as former volunteer I would rather have it than not.
3)Darn right – life sucks – people spend months, year or lifetimes dealing with issues – silence from God, illness, failure you name it – some of us deal with it currently – and there is no transparency in regards to it – it’s a sad thing – but you know you wouldn’t want to make church depressing now would you? Reality is such an annoying thing… (sarcasm just in case you didn’t catch that)
4) Denying missionaries – now that’s not a church – sorry, but you’ve missed one of the key points other than love the Lord your God… and Love your neighbor… – of course there are other great ones but you know what I mean.
5) I guess this is more an issue with smaller churches – we’re so big that it’s 24/7 job being a pastor you’re on call, you’re always available and you’re always working – it’s a rough time just volunteering – I can only imagine how tough it is to balance family and pastoral work.
6) Angry is good – it’s frustration with what we know can be and seeing the apathy that is out there. I know it well – I spent the last three years volunteering with our huge youth ministry – running the Saturday night program by myself and knowing that if I needed the Saturday off no one else would cover and our over worked Junior High pastor would have to work – so I avoided time off at all costs and it killed me – despite my love for my kids – I stopped, because I looked at the 6000 + and went basically what the __ is going on here? You can’t tell me that none of you have a gifting for this or a heart for kids. Seriously? So I’ve moved on to a church that recognizes that is about communal service – it’s not a you serve me – it’s a we serve together to further the body – His Church – note the big C vs. little c
It is hard though with small communal driven churches as the population as a whole seeks to be served – because those small churches like the two recently planted in Vancouver are limited in what they offer – one is a university based church seeking primarily new believers and those on the fringes and the other is in the downtown – seeking the primarily single 20-40 something group – who will inevitably get married and then you’ve got to deal with that.
I am sorry that you have had such bad experiences with churches. Those issues are real, and so many others are in the same boat as you. Just be reassured, as others have also mentioned, that not all churches have the problems you mentioned. Honestly! And I would encourage you to find out for yourself.
I will keep this short.
I feel most of your response Shawn. I see the heart of ALL of it. Great points.
I had to make a choice a few years back. 1. stand outside of the "church" and point out the flaws. OR 2. get inside of the "church" and help change it from the inside out. I chose the latter.
I can only hope that in my world of the Church (body), lives are being touched b/c of the resources we do have and give. I struggle, don't get me wrong. BUT, right now, I have chosen to work as part of the Church by working from within the "church".
Shalom.
C
As I pastor I take offense when you say that all we do is sit in an office and get sermons ready that you can hear anyone preach.
I spend 12+ hours a day helping people and do most of my sermon work at home. Counciling people, going and bailing church goers out jail, helping people get into drug rehab, taking phone calls from people who are hurting, seeing widows whose husbands just died, visiting a dieing person in the hospital, marriage counseling for a couple in their 20's, making sure our thanksgiving basket program has enough funding so we can feed the 500 people who count on us every thanksgiving, praying for and with people who are questioning God...going out with our evangelism team and telling people about God.
I work longer hours and take less vacations then anyone in any other profession I know....I'm not trying to be self-righteous, but I'm saying that a pastor's job is not a simple as listening to some podcasts, reading and book and taking notes. And my job dosent end at 5:00PM. Do you think that after all that it's not fair to say I am not worthy of being on payroll...
again I'm not trying to sing my own praises but I think you should look at more than just a few churches before you can say such things
jlfla- In short I would say that you are then not the "typical" ceo pastor and I would refer you back to point 5.
Chad- I hear what you are saying and I in fact respect someone who is willing to say they are doing a job and they do it for a job. If I could get paid for using a talent I have I would do it.
I also wanted to point out, these are my experiences with organized church, these are soley my opinions and do not reflect anyone elses opinion but my own. If you are upset that I point out what I have observed sorry for you, these are my observations.
just face it, your a bitter person and the church is an easy target. i spent many hours with you, listening encouraging and just hanging, but that was never enough. i love you and im always here for you but man you gotta get over your bitterness. the church is a living organism yet very imperfect. stop expecting perfection for shawn in shawns world.
Chris,
I don't know you but would like to understand why, if you live in Jupiter and Shawn lives in Jupiter, you couldn't go and speak to Shawn about what you perceive as bitterness. I have known Shawn for a couple of years and have more to get to know, but attacking him on his personal blog doesn't seem to get the conversation anywhere. Can I be so bold as to recommend that the both of you meet to discuss what looks like a strained relationship?
Shawn,
I distinctly remember several times that you fervently defended the idea that the "mode" of gathering is not the issue (and I agree). It might help others understand that "not going to church" stems from a viewpoint that we "are" the church (universal) and some of our shared issues fall into a desire for unity/equality under Christ, rather than the "us vs. them"/"in or out"/"expert, laity"/theological competition mentality that appears to exist currently. All who are apprentices of Jesus, wherever we are, wherever we go, whatever mode of gathering God is growing us in, is the Kingdom of God and God is present among us.
I guess I don't see bitterness in the post, but do see hurt (I have been there and sometimes still feel the sting).
I personally don't understand the need for a 501c3 or large buildings, controlled environments, expert/laity divisions, etc. but that is a long discussion over coffee for me rather than a blog topic. As you know I don't blog often:)
Thanks for being bold enough to share your personal thoughts on your blog. See you tonight.
"I personally don't understand the need for a 501c3 or large buildings, controlled environments, expert/laity divisions, etc"
I think in response to the 501C3 comment there needs to be some full disclosure.
I like how Shaun Groves put it to you Shawn when he said what will you do when your little group grows from 40 to 80 people? Isn’t that what most churches are anyway? Small groups who out grew their house or coffee shop or whatever and then began to meet in building because most people like to sit around inside out of the sun.
What I don’t understand, Shawn, is your attitude towards the church as a building, why do you have such a problem with a church owning and operating a building? They need to have a place to meet.
I can understand an antagonism toward mega-churches who spend so much money on lights, sound…etc. But your average church does not have that. Your average church needs to meet somewhere and without your average church things like Compassion and missions would not be so frequent.
The 501C3 deal was put in place so that those organizations could operate for the Kingdom without having to pay unnecessary tax to the government. This cut down cost and helped them make their mission more effective.
The thing is, if you look at the great missionaries of the past, and most in the present, they are sent out by churches who have a building. Compassion International would not be able to operate if there were no churches with buildings…there is nothing wrong with them having a place to meet, the problem comes when people begin to think of the church as simply a building, not the community it was intended to be.
You are bitter though, I agree with Chris, you need to let God change your heart toward HIS, emphasis His, church who is doing His will, and has been his venue for a couple thousand years now, to an extent, far more than the blogger who wants to point out flaws, and jump into doing something rather than saying.
you haven't been a Christian long have you Shawn?
Anonomous-
I was born and raised in a well known denominaion, throughout my adulthood I have attended three different "non-denominational" churches all under the same name which to me is a denomintation (not that there is anything wrong with that). So in short, no I am not a "new christian" in the sense of I haven't been around long enough to know what I do not like about the way we "do church."
I've been reading the responses to Shawn's post the last few days and felt like I needed to say something. My wife and I started the community Shawn is a part of here in Jupiter about six years ago. At its inception, we felt that God wanted us to help shape a group of people where it was okay to ask questions, not be burdened with an extreme about of 'church activities', and learn together how to become better disciples of Jesus. We care deeply that each person we come into contact with is given the space and freedom to do this and encourage them to read, study, write, have conversations with a broad range of people...whatever it takes to understand more about and walk in God's kingdom as a natural part of their daily life.
Shawn has been with us for a little over a year, and in that time I have seen the Father begin to work on very deep places in his heart and spirit. He, like many of those with us (including myself!) are very much a work-in-progress. We are attempting to do simple things like love our neighbors and enemies, care for the needy, and learn to have authentic, loving relationships with those around us. We often fail at our attempts to do those things, but the Spirit is continually spurring us forward.
In regards to Shawn's questions about church, he is certainly not alone in asking them. Obviously, the church has never been perfect, so there will always be people who get hurt or push for change in one area or another. However, we live in a time where many, many people, particularly in the American church, are looking for an expression of church that is larger than a place to spend a few hours on Sunday morning. Many of these people, including Shawn, may appear to be "bitter" at church, but in my experience they - to use Shawn's words - "love the Church so much [they are] willing to try and help make a change for the better."
I would invite anyone to send me an email if you have any questions about our community or anything I've said. Also, if you are in the Jupiter / West Palm area, I'd love to get together and answer any questions face to face. You can reach me at mike at rgd engineers dot com.
I think from reading all of these comments, as well as the original post, a few things come to mind:
As a friend of Shawn's and as one who shares similar views about the "Corporate Church", i recognize that my current beef against big churches doesn't seem to be a good means to and end, if i allow this anger to fester into resentment and bitterness (as others have labeled my friend with this struggle).
In New England, amongst a group of my friends, as well as sentiments of local churches (let's say NH just for a demographic), we are growing weary of the "big church" or Corporate Church". I even decided to pull away from a big church to be a part of a small and struggling church.
Yet i realize that though I might have gotten a bad taste from big churches (heh, and saying this opens the door to the psychoanalytical Christians... because I would already formulate conclusions if anyone made this similar statement), remaining in this sentiment without recognizing the exponential blessings that come out of big churches would keep me a narrowminded fool.
I whole heartedly believe that there is a growing issue of "transfer growth" happening in at least the churches in the Northeast, and a decline in new believers. Though this may be a belief of mine now, I am totally open and willing to be humbled by God's truth on the matter.
So here's a brief assessment to this, because that was my aim in the first place:
"The Harvest is plentiful, but the Laborers are few" If we think that we have to do this on our own, the overwhelming shortage of believers in this world would do nothing but depress me even further. If I was convinced that we are on our own in this, my realistic nature would get the best of me.
But, the variable that we must not forget is that though the quote may be true... we must take hope in the Power of the Holy Spirit in every/all situations..
Regardless if we are in a Big Church or Small Church, the 'Laborers" will be few in this Harvest... meaning that we will always have to rely on God and trust in HIM to, for a lack of better term, Compensate for our human limitations in ministry.
I believe that if Christ is the center of the Church, we need to band together as brethren and bear each others burdens in love, grace and truth (I'm trying to work on this).
I may have a hard time when viewing the Corporate Church as more of a business than a ministry... but that's a burden that is mine to wrestle with God on.
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